Discussion about this post

User's avatar
Erald Kolasi's avatar

Hi Stephen,

Thank you for your reply. There are a few misconceptions I wanted to address in this post. First, and most important, the argument I was making was that we never had economies based on barter to begin with. You are instead asserting, without any evidence whatsoever, that we transitioned from bartering to other economic states to overcome problems of scale. But this argument only holds assuming that our earliest economies were indeed based on bartering, which is very unlikely given everything we know. As I explained in the post, our earliest economies were almost certainly based on social credit, trust, and ritual gift exchanges. The idea that our ancestors were bartering left and right to get what they wanted is a myth. Anthropologists like David Graeber and Richard Lee have long explained how we used to get stuff before the rise of civilization: by simply asking for it. You would ask someone in your community for a spear, they would give it to you on demand, then later you'd be expected to either return the spear or give back something else considered valuable by the community. But there was no tit-for-tat exchange, no process resembling tatonnement of any kind. These were, in effect, rudimentary credit systems based on debts and obligations. No bartering necessary at all.

Now let me briefly address your argument about scale. First, your accusations against me relating to scale are a sign that you're not familiar with my work at all. The first chapter of my book, The Physics of Capitalism, is literally called "Growth and Scale in Economics." Second, there are many examples of complex civilizations that efficiently allocated resources without using prices at all. Andean civilizations in South America, such as the Tiwanaku and the Inca, developed complex states and empires without the corresponding rise of a large merchant class. The state controlled the distribution of resources, handing out food and equipment as necessary, and people usually paid taxes to the government in the form of labor. Based on anthropological data, these systems thrived for centuries and they appear to have worked efficiently, in the sense that they consistently avoided extreme resource shortages. So it's just not true that you need money to have complex civilization. Third, even in ancient civilizations where money did arise and was used in various ways, credit systems still coexisted and even dominated, as Graeber and others have shown with Ancient Sumer. You want to portray a relationship of mutual exclusion between these two that simply doesn't exist. In reality, money and credit are synergistic phenomena, and money emerged as a way to further refine and entrench credit systems, not replace them. Fourth, you argue that credit systems cannot overcome problems of scale, but you have a very limited conception of what constitutes social credit and trust in the first place. You seem to think that social credit is a localized phenomenon about trusting your neighbor down the street, whereas in reality social trust can come in many different forms, up to and including trust in a broader social or political system. Once you recognize this critical distinction, it becomes easy to see how social forces like hierarchy and power can overcome Dunbar's scale constraints. When hierarchies form, interpersonal communications can be highly restricted to high levels of leadership, then social messages are transmitted down the chain of command until they reach the masses. Fifth, the plot thickens and the story is actually far more complicated, as anthropologists like Graeber and Wingrow have argued in The Dawn of Everything that you don't even complex hierarchies or dictatorial regimes to get complex societies and civilizations. You can get variations of these complex societies through more decentralized networks, albeit with various levels of hierarchical structure.

I could go on and on, but I think I've made my point. There are lots of interesting issues to think through in this discussion, and I would recommend some of the anthropologists I've cited here to start grappling with them.

No posts

Ready for more?